Here is another example Elin can complain about. This organization has Canadians, Americans, expats, and people who are native to, and living in, Wales on the Board. This is the logo everyone loves. The Americymru logo isn't supposed to represent Wales--it represents Wales and America and the Welsh in America and Welsh expats in America. If we wanted to represent Wales, we'd use the Draig Goch. Saying that, I have seen many incarnations of the Welsh dragon in use in Wales--just take a look in any gift shop. I am not sure what she is complaining about--especially if she has been a member of this site for years. Did she just notice it?

Comment by Ceri Shaw 3 hours ago

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The Red Dragon is the national emblem of Wales and the dragon at the top of the page is the logo of this site. I fail to see that you have made a point of any kind in your last post. It is every bit as vacuous as your previous utterances imho

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Comment by Ian Price 4 hours ago

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A fight with a feather.

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Comment by Elin 4 hours ago

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Ceri and Gaabi, Again I say that the RED Dragon is the symbol for Wales, not the blue dragon or the tuqquoise dragon or the USA Flag Dragon. It would be great if you could take the time to design something meaningful that does not bastartize the Welsh Dragon. As for my ass, it's in great shape from walking miles in the mountains every day. Also, you know nothing of my activities in promoting Wales or the language. It is a mistake for you misuse the symbol for Wales, which is, AGAIN, a Red Dragon. The reason I have not been active on your site isthat it does not hold much interest for me.

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Comment by Ceri Shaw 4 hours ago

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Diolch Matthew....and very well put if I may say so

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Comment by Matthew Reese 4 hours ago

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(Also, as Americans (those of us who are), we believe in freedom of association. You can always leave...)

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Comment by Matthew Reese 4 hours ago

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Surely there is room for folk to appreciate Wales while being so removed as we are.

Can we not love the country of our Birth AND the country of our ancestors?

Cannot we, like so many of Americas Founding Father, Carry within our hearts a devotion to this, our land, and to Welsh the love of Freedom that sings within our very souls.

And can anyone imagine an image that says 'Americymru' more?

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Comment by Ceri Shaw 4 hours ago

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Additionally I resent your 'commercial purposes' slur. This site besides consuming almost every waking hour of my day some days, costs thousands of dollars to maintain ( when taken together with the various activities and events which we promote in association with it ). Your misinformed and vindictive remarks today have been your sole contribution to this site and its activities in 5 years as a member.

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Comment by gaabi 4 hours ago

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I am the creator of the AmeriCymru logo and the book dragon logo for the PSU event which you emailed Ceri Shaw to complain about. I am an American and co-founded this site with Ceri, six years ago. I do all the graphics and multimedia we use on all our sites.

Since it was created, this logo has been viewed by millions of people and you are one of TWO to complain about it, the other person was an American offended that the US flag was inside the dragon. I hear and understand your objection. My opinion is completely different and, while it is your option, I disagree with everything that you have said. No national symbol is "sacred," the dragon is used "commercially" by Welsh people all over Wales, all the time, in hundreds, maybe thousands, of examples and probably has been since almost the time it was created. If you really think "no true Welsh person" would change the dragon, you must be the only "true" Welsh person on earth, in your mind.

I am sorry that you are offended and that my admiration for the land of your birth and its culture offends you, perhaps I ought to end my mainly thankless, unpaid, voluntary efforts and every person like yourself, whose ass I haven't seen off the chair promoting Wales and Welsh heritage, can do a better job than I have.

And, ohmygod, "Y Beibl" has been edited and changed ENDLESSLY in the last couple thousand years and I couldn't possibly list the many different versions of it that exist today.

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Comment by Ceri Shaw 4 hours ago

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With reference to my earlier post I should add that Gaabriel designed both logos.

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Comment by Ceri Shaw 4 hours ago

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https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&amp;hl=en&amp;site=imghp&amp;tbm=isch&amp;source=hp&amp;biw=1024&amp;bih=605&amp;q=welsh+dragon&amp;oq=welsh+dragon&amp;gs_l=img.12...0.0.0.2578.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1ac..25.img..0.0.0.8s1GY_tntQ4"; target="_blank"> https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&amp;hl=en&amp;site=imghp&amp...</a></p> ; <p>And what do we make of this heresy ( again designed by Welsh designers )?</p> <p><a href=" http://www.anglesey.info/images/Rhondda%20Photos/Mametz%20Wood,%20Flatiron%20Copse%20Cemetery,%20Welsh%20Dragon.jpg" ; target="_blank">http://www.anglesey.info/images/Rhondda%20Photos/Mametz%20Wood,%20F...%3C/a%3E%3C/p%3E"> http://www.anglesey.info/images/Rhondda%20Photos/Mametz%20Wood,%20F...</a></p> ; <p></p> <p>Clearly this is the wrong shape AND the wrong shade of red!!!!</p> <p>How dare you insist that everyone else in the world besides you is wrong. In my opinion you owe my partner Gaabriel Becket a personal apology. She is not Welsh but she IS of Welsh descent and over the last 5 years for no reward, she has done more to promote Wales than you have achieved in your lifetime.</p> <p></p>">

Elin...you do not come on to someone elses site....make ignorant and insulting remarks and then tell others to be silent. You joined this site in 2008 and you have contributed nothing since until today.

I have spoken to a number of people about your post and your original email and all are agreed ( Welsh and American alike ) that it is preposterous. Please take a look at the google image page for 'Welsh Dragon'. You will find that there are silhouettes filled with black and white and occasionally green or yellow backgrounds....most of them designed by Welsh designers.

https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&hl=en&site=imghp&...

And what do we make of this heresy ( again designed by Welsh designers )?

http://www.anglesey.info/images/Rhondda%20Photos/Mametz%20Wood,%20F...

Clearly this is the wrong shape AND the wrong shade of red!!!!

How dare you insist that everyone else in the world besides you is wrong. In my opinion you owe my partner Gaabriel Becket a personal apology. She is not Welsh but she IS of Welsh descent and over the last 5 years for no reward, she has done more to promote Wales than you have achieved in your lifetime.

Please stop bastaradising out beloved Welsh Dragon. No self respecting Welsh person would USE Y Ddraig in this manner. The Welsh Dragon is

• Posted by Elin on August 14, 2013 at 7:30am

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Comment by Elin 4 hours ago

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For those of you wondering, I meant bastardising OUR Welsh Dragon. And to the American who designed the logo, it's obvious to me that you care nothing for the Red Dragon and what it means as a symbol to the people of Wales. The Kokopelli is much used and abused by a bunch of white people who 'don't understand' why the native americans object to the misuse of a symbol representing a god to the natives in Arizonal. But what the heck, as long as these white folk are making money on t-shirst and other trivial items that bear the image of the kokopelli in various outfits and poses!!!

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Comment by Elin 5 hours ago

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Mae'r Ddraig yn bwysig i'r Cymry, ac yn ei ffurff wreiddiol. Enough of this changing the dragon for commercial purposes. Yes Y Ddraig was brought to us by Macsen Wledig, a Roman. The Romans also brought us Y Beibl,which isunchanged to this day. The use of the dragon in different colors is obviously something only an American would do. I reiterate that no true Welsh person would change our beloved Ddraig Goch (RED dragon). Also, Sior, don't put words in my mouth, I care not for the three feathers as a symbol of Wales.

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Comment by Ceri Shaw 5 hours ago

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That's easy to answer....basically the logo on this site and the Welsh American Bookstore.

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Comment by Swansea Jack 5 hours ago

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If I were Elin, I'd be shouting 'tort' over the 'ad hominem attack' rendered a few hours ago! However, I am STILL bursting with curiosity over just what 'manner of use of Y Ddraig' prompted her plea.

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Comment by Mike Watkins 11 hours ago

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<p><strong><a rel=nofollow href=" http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/sites/themes/society/flag_officialemblem.shtml" ; target="_blank">Designed: 1959</a></strong></p><p>Consecrated: ???</p><p><a href=" *QTBh9*eaF1dMj9xN8UOQgd*PYNh*HzDE1jYOgdy*1ottBAtuJrpoWFX5dwouOU*C192dC6v7olOi/flag_welsh02_446.jpg" target="_self"><img src=" *QTBh9*eaF1dMj9xN8UOQgd*PYNh*HzDE1jYOgdy*1ottBAtuJrpoWFX5dwouOU*C192dC6v7olOi/flag_welsh02_446.jpg" width="446" class="align-full"/></a></p><p></p>">

Here is the flag:-

Designed: 1959

Consecrated: ???

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Comment by Sior Child 11 hours ago

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Elin, if you knew anything about your "sacred" dragon, you'd know it was adopted by Henry Tudor from an earlier Romano-British symbol. I suppose you also think the Three Feather's are also a sacred Welsh symbol, right? Wrong, they're German and a symbol of the Heir to the Throne of England. Learn some bloody history, you fool.

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Comment by Swansea Jack 12 hours ago

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http://americymru.net/group/threewordstorygroup"; target="_self">this link</a> may suit you. <img src=" http://www.bkserv.net/images/Grin.gif"/></p> ;">

An afterthought: If a 140 character limit is too challenging for anyone, may I suggest that this link may suit you.

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Comment by Swansea Jack 12 hours ago

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http://www.bkserv.net/images/Tongue.gif"/></p>;">

. . . or if the misspellings in 'bastar a dising ou t ' are anything to go by, maybe 'scared' - not 'sacred'!

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Comment by Ceri Shaw 13 hours ago

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Incidentally the next word would have been 'sacred'

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Comment by Ceri Shaw 13 hours ago

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More on this soon