Are you sure it is still there? I couldn't find it on FB. 
welsh kilts
wearing a kilt is nothing new welsh kilts are i registered my family kilt with the authority and wear it proudly every time i compete in highland games we all should do this for family history and welsh hertiage plus its darn cool
have to say my husband adrian wears utilikilts round and about....perhaps not 100% welsh but he does cut quite a dash when he wears them...the lst time was to the national botanical gardens i think, it was a breezy day....
What a con, still there are loads of mugs to be taken for a ride, wat can one do. It will soon blow over I hope and then we can get back to organising the revolution, We are a revolutionary nation arn't we or was it something that I just read in a book. Anyrate nostar, tat tar,
I am attempting to load a photo of a female doll dressed in the Welsh National Costume. What, if any, is the male national costume for Wales?(source of the photo: www.walesdirectory.co.uk )
In reply to Jennifer (Garan Gwynn), when I say that I am Scottish, yes, I mean that I am of Scottish descent, and most Americans understand what I mean when I say this. However, to my Scottish (born and raised in Scotland family), I am American (so Tartan Soldier is correct in what he is saying). Lately I've taken to saying that I'm Celtic-American, because that is the best way that I can say that most of my ancestry, and a lot of of my upbringing, comes from the UK. It is not a very accurate description, but it is the best shorthand that I can come up with. I'm also Danish, French, and German!I was born and raised in American. I have only visited Scotland for a week, and that in my adulthood... but culturally, I am split between the two countries. I was raised by very Old World standards, and my sense of humour is very British. (While I understand American humour, I don't think it funny. The Americans never understand my jokes because they are so UK in nature... and they often accuse me of lacking a sense of humour as a result. It wasn't until I started watching British sitcoms that I began to understand that my sense of humour is merely different from that of most Americans.) My work ethic is extremely Scots. (Until I joined a Welsh group, I thought that the work-ethic think was UK, and was quite surprised to learn that the Welsh have more of a "man~ana" attitude toward life!) I grew up eating Scottish foods and listening to Scottish music (and not just the pipes). I have sung Scottish folksongs and ballads with my grandmother since infancy. When I visit with my native-born Scottish family for more than a few days, I begin to pick up the accent--to the point that people who don't know me well ask me which part of the UK I come from. I was raised so British that I don't fit in well with most Americans, but when I went to Britain, the fact that I was born and raised in America overrode the Britishisms that I was raised with. The fact is that I am a child of two cultures and as such do not... quite...fit into either.My comment about Welsh national dress is that we Welsh-Americans should learn what the Welsh national dress is and be proud to wear that. I'm not saying that the Welsh should not wear kilts, lederhosen, or kimonos... but that we would better serve our own national identity by wearing Welsh stuff. Let's let the world know that we exist!
The Brythonic people of North Britain in the Kingdom of Strathclyde (Scotland) are kin to the Welsh. They shared the same language. They were known as the people of the North by those in the south. There are town names in Scotland that still demonstrate this British (Brython) connection such as Dumbarton (Fortress of the Britons) and EdinBurgh. I think people should acquant themselves with Oppenheimers recent genetic survey to understand that there is a race common to the Irish, Welsh, Scottish and English across the Isles. On average something like 70 percent of these people are descended from people migrating from what is now Spain some 10, 000 years or so ago. The borders on maps of Britain are are product of an unfortunate history that divided the early settlers. The question of Englishness and other origins of people of the Isles is being revised by solid science for once and not the long lasting subjugation of truth and reality by those who would historically seperate us all. It now looks like the first people arrived in Wales (the most accesible area after de-glaciation) and traveled to Ireland (and then to Scotland), to England and from England to Scotland.
I LOVE my "American" kilt!A Utilikilt from Seattle, WA. http://www.utilikilts.com/ - Ray
I dont care if you listen to rod stewart or watch craig ferguson.
Hey tartansoldier -This might be a little late but - your general attitude here is ALMOST bad enough to make me stop listening to Rod Stewart or laughing at Craig Ferguson (and thoroughly lusting after both) !! Lighten up a bit!
Damn...well I'm sure there are "specialty" stores that sell them.
Here is a very lenghty discussion on the subject. It is a topic on a forum scotland.com. You will find that the scots on the forum will validate my interpretations; http://www.scotland.com/forums/clans/24986-scottishness-identity-40.html
I think what we have here is a matter of semantics. It is an American cultural thing, apparently, to say, "I am Scots," or "I am Welsh," or "I am French," and most Americans would understand that to mean "I am a person of Scottish ancestry," or "I am a person of Welsh ancestry," etc. Unless you're speaking with a clear foreign accent, it would not be assumed that you were necessarily BORN in the country of your ancestors.So while I understand the opinion you are stating, I don't believe you fully understand American culture.I'd like to hear the opinion of another Scot on this subject, however. I'd like to know if this attitude is in fact a "cultural" thing, or simply the opinion of one individual.
I agree that everyone should be ancouraged to learn about their ancestors etc. I would and have never disputed that. However the identity gronw in people of particular groups belong only to those groups. I dont believe anyone has the right to call themselves a scot unless they are from scotland.
The latest US Census Bureau data notes that 15.2% of Americans identify themselves as primarily of German ancestry. That would mean that 84.8% do not. As for being of mixed ancestry, I would imagine that most of us here qualify. That should not dissuade anyone from honoring and identifying with these ancestral links.
I would have thought that you were incorrect on this and that there would be a higher percent of Americans of French and English descent than German but according to the US Census Bureau, I believe you're correct: http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/SAFFIteratedFacts?_event=&geo_id=01000US&_geoContext=01000US&_street=&_county=&_cityTown=&_state=&_zip=&_lang=en&_sse=on&ActiveGeoDiv=&_useEV=&pctxt=fph&pgsl=010&_submenuId=factsheet_2&ds_name=DEC_2000_SAFF&_ci_nbr=535&qr_name=DEC_2000_SAFF_A1010 =DEC_2000_SAFF_A1010%3A535&_keyword=&_industry=English and French are FAR behind people who self-identify as German and Welsh and Scot far behind that but Irish appears to be the next largest group after German.In my own family background I've found English, Scot and Welsh. I've been told there's native Canadian and French but I haven't found any yet.Of course it's going to be true that Americans have a mix of ancestry, we're not called "the melting pot" for nothing but it can also be surprising how long someone's family can be here and NOT be that mixed. I expected to find more mix in my own background as it starts at the Mayflower but I haven't, so far all British Isles all the way. I think this is interesting and I wonder how much of that is the passing down of custom and manners and inability to tolerate different customs or manners, that "those other people" are so different you don't marry into them, you marry into the people that are familiar and tolerable?
"scotttish culture, people, dialect, inward and outward perceptions, ideology, philosophy, beliefs, politics, kinship, community, understanding, humour etc etc. That is what makes someone scottish.As I have stated before this IS what makes you scottish. This cannot be passed down. Please give me an example otherwise."Hmmm...Okay, let me take a shot at this...1. People - people are passed down from one generation to another by the act of procreation, if I remember correctly...therefore Scottish PEOPLE are "passed down" in the form of genetics (DNA) from other Scottish people...in other words, Scottish people literally MAKE more Scottish people, do they not? Regardless of the location of their birth...2. Dialect - Let's see...where do babies learn to talk? I believe it is from their parents...so if the parents speak a certain Scottish dialect, would not this be passed down to their children? Correct me if I am wrong. Also one can learn a new language or dialect that was NOT passed down from one's parents (as you point out) but what you are suggesting is that you can't learn this without living in that place for a long time, and that is not true...by the way, you speak English -- does that make you ENGLISH?3. Inward and Outward perceptions - where do children first begin forming perceptions? Hmmm...I believe it is...YES! From their parents! It is passed down to them! Granted, as a person matures they begin to form their own perceptions, which can change based on life experience and other information they gather over the course of their life...but let's go on...4. Ideology, philosophy, beliefs, politics - more of the same; unless you were raised by wolves I believe that probably the basis for your ideologies, philosophies, beliefs and politics also begins at home -- it is passed down from your parents!! Until you go out and form your own opinions, of course. But you can choose to remain with those philosophies, beliefs, etc. that were passed down to you from infancy also.5. Kinship, community - Ahhh...kinship is -- RELATIVES! That means -- PARENTS! Ancestors! Or, a feeling of connectedness, even if one is not a blood relative. Isn't that right? So kinship and community can be literal or figurative. And yes, even the Japanese lad in lederhosen would feel a sense of kinship and community with the Scots if he lived in Scotland all his life, but that wouldn't change the fact that he is still a Japanese lad in lederhosen...So cannot the same thing be accomplished by retaining or REGAINING the sense of community and kinship that perhaps once existed among our common ancestors, or even just among those of like mind and heart?6. Understanding - Understanding cannot be passed down? Perhaps not completely, but certainly one can learn from listening with an open mind and heart and can gain a degree -- perhaps a very large degree -- of understanding of a culture if they feel a connection to it and apply themselves to the study of it and recreate that in their own life so as to live it...7. Humour - Ah...now here you have me. Because I find nothing humourous at all in such a limited outlook as you have prescribed here...must be a Scottish thing that I could not possibly ever understand.
of course you are correct in stating below that the kilt is not traditional anywhere but in Scotland. the celts had never invented it. and that even in Scotland not everyone runs around in one.That said, I enjoy going to Celtic festivals and seeing the fellows walking around in their kilts! I love it! I do not care that it is not Welsh. Or Irish, since most of us are a mix of all of these, why not. And a lovely tune on the pipes is enough to give me goosebumps.
Actually, I happen to agree with tartansoldier about the problems associated with understanding anyone else's culture. He has a point in saying that I cannot really know what it is like to be raised in Scotland -- nor what it is like to be raised by 2 Irish parents in Scotland -- anymore than he can really understand what it is like to be a 4th generation Californian. Still, I would hope that this would not prevent us from learning something from each other. I would love to hear his perspectives on how he has been molded by the Scots, if he can separate that out from what he got from his Irish parents.Seems to me that in this rapidly shrinking world, we would all benefit from learning from each other -- and where we find differences to explore, we may decide to agree to disagree, and still be friends in celebration of each other.Be back later... going to go put me cilt on. 
Well....in fairness to Tartansoldier he has livened up this thread enormously this morning and as far as the history of the kilt goes he is entirely correct.. I still dont entirely understand why he objects so strongly to its being adopted by other nations though. Its Scottish historical origin can never be in doubt. Surely it is a tribute to the sartorial genius of the Scots if people elsewhere in the world start to wear kilts. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. BUT I agree that no one should suppose that this item of apparel is traditional anywhere outside Scotland.
But since I am REALLY American it is not OK for me to claim any aspects of any of these cultures as my own?I think the tone of this statement means you are wanting me to say something, I dont want to repeat myself. But I will say it one more time. I said have already stated *sigh that I was not attacking you heritage. Infact I think I stated this several times. How many more times would you like me to say it?I have been saying all along, never mind
Wow I am glad that you are not the one who gets to decide such things! Of course parents pass the culture that they had been immerssed in on to their children! all of the things that you list that makes one this or that is exactly what one learns from ones parents! if you think that they dont you are just dead wrong! I learned many things from my Chactaw Grandmother. more things than just what she intended to teach me! She had been immersed in what was left of her culture and was a product of it. everything that she did was a result of it. When she raised my father she could not help but act in the way that this immersion dictated! As she helped with the upbringing of her grandchildren the same was true. now as her grandchild I am the product of this interaction. many of her traditions and even the way she viewed the world have been passed on to me! Parents CANNOT help but pass on their culture that is how it is perpetuated!
I think you would agree that language is an essential component of culture? How do you respond to the fact that there are many Americans who speak more Welsh than some of the native born Welshpersons on this site? I agree ( to an extent ) that you are who you are as an accident of birth. But I suspect that you and I will disagree on the following proposition:- Human nature ( character ) is entirely plastic. We each have the ability to mold ourselves in whatever fashion we choose. Being Welsh is a matter of conscious choice even for a native. Witness the following quote from a poem by R. S. Thomas:-I think of a Welsh hillThat is without fencing, and the men,Bosworth blind, who left the heatherAnd the high pastures of the heart. I fumbleIn the pocket's emptiness; my ticketWas in two pieces. I kept half."St. James Park" quoted from this article:- http://www.intellectbooks.com/europa/number3/davies.htm Leaving aside the question of whether you can ever truly "adopt" another culture, however, the effort to understand it is always to be applauded.
Not yet....but I will be going to Nordstrom soon and they are at the top of my shopping list. As soon as I do I will post a pic on this site.
scotttish culture, people, dialect, inward and outward perceptions, ideology, philosophy, beliefs, politics, kinship, community, understanding, humour etc etc. That is what makes someone scottish.As I have stated before this IS what makes you scottish. This cannot be passed down. Please give me an example otherwise.
Culture cannot be passed on in a manner that makes someone scottish you have to live and breath it every day. What parts of scottish culture do they pass on Bagpipes ?.A lot of us scots have irish, scottish, english parents, I know for a fact that they dont pass their culture on to their children. This is nonsense culture is not somethin that is tangebile to be passed down it has to be lived in, to make you what you are. Most americans have so far removed culture that I entirely doubt they can give proper insight into what it means to be scottish. how on earth could they?I know americans love to trace their family history, you keep thinking I am attaking your interest on your heritage I am not. Scottish heritage does not make you scottish though.And no I am not saying stop looking into your family heritage. I am saying that scottish or welsh heritage does not make someone welsh or scottish.
Then you'll have no objection if we wear lederhosen from time to time.
The people who raise you make you what you are! if those people have been immersed in a culture they pass that on to their offspring! even if those offspring have been born far away from where the culture began. Americans love to trace their family history. A trait that they inherited from their Celtic ancestors who also love it. according to your rules we should just stop looking at the ocean.
I would also like to add that most americans are actually of german descent. The vast and I mean VAST majority of americans with scottish ancestors have a predominantly higher number of other nationalities in their ancestry aswell.
Being born in scotland does not make you scottish and it does not make me scottish. Having a scottish parent does not make me scottish either.To be scottish you must have been raised in scotland from an age early enough, that allows scotland to shape your character, personality and being. To be scottish you must have been assimilated and moulded by scotttish culture, people, dialect, inward and outward perceptions, ideology, philosophy, beliefs, politics, kinship, community, understanding, humour etc etc. That is what makes someone scottish.How exactly does having obscure scottish ancestors make you scottish ?I have an irish father along with an irish mother but I was brought up in scotland, therefore I am not irish despite having an irish father.
I think Brians point is much simpler than you think. He is merely insisting that he has the right to associate with whatever culture he pleases and that he has even more right to do so if his ancestors were of that culture.For my own part...I was born and brought up in in Wales and lived there for 44 years. I emigrated 7 years ago. I am now an American citizen. What am I? Certainly my immersion in Welsh culture has been deeper and longer lasting than my exposure to American culture. But I have lived in America for seven years and as far as the American government is concerned I can consider myself a citizen. Clearly I am both Welsh and American or an American of Welsh origin if you please.Many of the members of this site were not born in Wales and some have not as yet even visited it. But they nearly all have Welsh ancestry and roots however distant. Why should they not wish to study the culture of that part of the world from which their descendants came? The more they study it the more they will become immersed in it. Some people on this site are more American than Welsh and others are more Welsh than American. In my view it is only a matter of percentages.Also you should be aware that it is a peculiarly American thing to trace your ancestry overseas. Dont forget "our" history stops a couple of hundred years ago ( excluding the native American Indians of course ) and after that point European history IS our history.Surely you would not wish members of the various Highland Game Societies in America to cease their activities forthwith on the grounds that they are American and could not possibly understand Scottish culture?
Ha! I can not believe this picture! And Here Here to Brian! It seems our Alban friend is a bit touchy! Truth is MOST Americans are of Scotts/Irish decent! And yes, we are Americans and much more! There is no reason to think that our grandfathers were supposed to check their culture at the door! We may not have been born in Scotland, but they were! Besides MANY cultures adopt the customs of those that they have come into contact with. I have a friend that is from Ireland, he was born there so I guess that makes him "real Irish". He runs a small business here in Denver; when ever I go into his store he is wearing a kilt. He prefers the Irish National Tartan. He may be only doing it to make sales, I dont know. Who cares HE LOOKS GREAT!I hope more American men decide to wear the kilt.I really dont think I will even get started about the whole "Real Scottish" thing because it sounds so hateful, and that is not what we Americans are about.
I do not dispute your ancestry, I am merely saying that ancestry does not make one scottish, welsh or swissThe scots, welsh and swiss are people from countries in europe and they are seperated by culture.Implying someone is scottish or welsh by ancestry implies that they are distinct and seperate races of people which is not true at all. I do however understand 'celebrating' your ancestry. However how can you subscribe to a culture that you have never experianced, never have lived in and frankly dont understand ?I would also like to point out that we are not celts. the 'celtic' culture died hundreds of years ago. Calling someone a celt now days is ridiculous. It is no differant from calling a german a hun or an italian a roman. Neo celticism makes me cringe, many people would have you believe celtic culture constitutes playing the fiddle and drinking guiness.
This site supports the right of all persons of Asian origin to wear Lederhosen! Both in the privacy of their own homes ( for whatever purpose ) and in public!
hehe... where to begin? First, I am of Welsh, Scots, Irish, and Swiss ancestry... Celts all. The "accident" of my birthplace doesn't change that. Being born here only means that I am free to define who I am and to what culture(s) I wish to subscribe.Second, British law and European statute are of little concern to me. The Welsh and Scots are Celts, and first cousins at that... the English are Angles, Jutes and Saxons, with a smattering of Roman. And the English have a long history of poor behavior towards the Welsh and the Scots... Lucky for me, I am physically removed from such nonsense. The English do not define me... I define me, and I am Celt.I like the image of a Japanese person wearing lederhosen! That person would at least have a sense of humor, and may in fact be honoring that culture. By the way, the last time I checked, the Edinburgh Military Tattoo wasn't booting the Nepalese Ghurkas who were there playing bag pipes and wearing kilts, and they are most definitely not Scots nor were they born in Scotland.Also, I should like to point out that the Scots wool milling industry has done a mighty good job of selling tartan goods to the world, and they might be in serious trouble if only Scots born in Scotland were allowed to play (pay). Applied to the Scots whisky industry, one might only wonder how many distilleries would never have come into existence were only Scots born in Scotland allowed to indulge. I did my bit for the Scots wool industry a few years back and designed a tartan, then had a kilt made: the pattern to honor my Welsh ancestry, and the kilt to honor my Scots. My support of the Scots whisky industry is legendary in these parts... thank the gods I didn't have to be born there in order to have some! lolI suspect that you are proud of your culture, and you should be. I am proud of my Scots ancestry in much the same way, likely as not. However, the demise of the Celts as a culture was in large part a result of their regional short-sightedness... an unfortunate outlook which has been repeated in Europe countless times over the centuries. They saw themselves as Carnutes or Silures or Lepontii or whatever, and therefore were defeated one at a time by Rome and others. I rejoice in how the Scots and Welsh and Irish and Swiss differ, but it saddens me greatly that they cannot seem to find delight and pride in their common Celtic heritage.I hope that you can rejoice in our diversity as well as revel in our common ancestry. May the gods bless you and yours this day.Brian
You are not welsh or scottish you are american.the scots and welsh are not defined as a race through anthropology, or british law and european statute... The welsh and scots are racially the same along with the english, germans, french etc.we are seperated by community and culture.
In that case, those of us who are both Welsh and Scots can wear them with impugnity... thx for the info, mate!
I came across this thread and being scottish (real scottish, not an american) I have to dispell some common fallacies.To a previous poster; you did NOT witness scots and irish fighting about who wore the kilt first, you were witnessing americans (probably making referance to their heritage) arguing about who wore the kilt. I know this because the irish would never wear a kilt, have never worn the kilt and would never claim the kilt. The irish kilt and tartan was developed in the latter half of the 20th century for the ignorant american market, whom for some ridiculous reason thinks the irish wore kilts. This is not true the irish never have worn kilt and they see kilts as explicitly scottish wear.I would also like to add that the celts never wore kilts, they wore trousers, The kilt was developed by 16th century scots gaels in the highlands, it was only worn by highlanders until they brought it into during the migraiton of highlanders to cities like glasgow and edinburgh.and to the poster below welsh people were not found living in scotland you are refering to the brythonic celts. Wales did not exist then. and it should be noted that the celts were spread through most of britian.welsh people wearing a kilt is like a japanese person wearing lederhosen.
You are spot on there, boyo. The key cultural distinction is Language - naddolig ac iath, naddolig ac llawen. I don't speak it as you can tell from that - but equally I would never dismiss the English speaking Welsh component - particularly the valleys industrial and social culture that Dave alludes to in those excellent books. I have pondered Nationalism and its excesses and pro's and con's for a long time, especially since being here in the USA and learning the intricacies of North/South - East/West distinctions. State pride goes a long way over here. At the end of the day, people like to celebrate their heritage. Good roots and remembrance help give one a sense of place and being part of a continuity of culture, even as it evolves. A culture is a living thing.
The Draig Goch is the most distinctly Welsh thing that I wear. I have a nice one embroidere on the back of a denim shirt by my wife's sister, who is from Maine. I always have to explain the St. David's tartan when I wear it, I just personally find it great in both formal and informal situations. Besides, at a local bar when the New World Celts meet, being Kilty gets you a free pint.
The only time undergarments are acceptable with a Kilt is when engaging in Scottish country dancing where flying Kilts might be revelatory. A long linen shirt was the customary acoutrement, which pulls down between the legs to avoid chafing. A proper dress kilt has a cotton lining.I have found marching in parades in Florida can be a chaffing experience if one goes "commando"I especially like the story of the Boarder Reevers who do historical re-enactments with the Sealed Knot, English Civil war society. They were asked to wear undergarments after concerned parents saw the 'last chicken in the shop' displayed by a dead re-enactor who fell with kilt awry. At the next show they charged a musket barrage en mass, all dropped dead simultaneously to reveal frilly lace ladies panties. The request was never enforced again.
Kilt wearing was introduced to Britain by the Romans - The old school, one piece pleated plaid belted at the waist. But the complex and traditional TARTANS are distinctly and historically Scottish. The modern dress Kilt as originated in the Victorian era is most peoples idea of a kilt but it dates back much further. As for arguments between Irish and Scottish over precedent - since the Scots came to Britain from Ireland perhaps they discovered and adopted it from the Welsh Britons already there, who in turn had acquired the fashion from the romans.The Welsh tartans will never be on a par with the lineage of the Scots clans but should definitely be registered.Its all a lovely Celtic Confabulation and nothing gets the ladies more excited than the hairy leg, nobbly knees, man in a skirt with a hairy pouch combination.Kilt up and rock on!
i,m getting a tartan dai cap does that count?
The Scots originally wore tartan. It was part of their custom and national identity. We moderns do not know what the original tartans were nor to what extent (if any) the tartans showed family, region, or political affiliation. I have heard that there most likely was no tartan specifically relegated to any one family, but based upon my knowledge of regional costumes around the world, and especially in European countries, I would not be surprised if the tartans were originally regionally based.England banned the wearing of the tartan and the playing of the bagpipes after Culloden. It was treasonous to wear tartan or to play the pipes. Consequently, the custom was all but wiped out. In Victorian times, it was re-introduced by the English, who romanticized the notion of wearing the kilt. Subsequently, Scottish tartans are most likely all commercial... but it was a way for Scots to attempt to reclaim their national customs and identity. Almost 200 years have passed, and there are recognized rules for the proper wearing of tartan. My mother and her family are Scots, and I personally am a member of Clan Donnachaid (sorry, my Gaelic spelling is atrocious!), of the Duncan sept. Technically, I can wear the Robertson tartan, because Robertson is a sept of Clan Donnachaid, but because I'm not Robertson, I really should only wear the Duncan tartan, even though I think Robertson is prettier!My father's ancestry is Danish and Welsh. Because my family has lost all its Welsh customs and traditions, I was happy to purchase ties and scarves made from the Hopkins tartan... even though I knew that the tartan was a commercial invention. It gave me and my family a way of expressing our Welshness, but I was careful to tell my family members that the items I gave them were not based in Welsh tradition, but were commercial in nature. However, if I had a way of wearing a traditional Welsh costume, I would prefer to do so, and I would wear it with pride. I would love to learn what regional costume my Welsh forebears wore and wear that. I'm already proud of my Scottish heritage. Why must (or should) I wear a "Welsh kilt" when I should (could) be wearing my Welsh ancestral costume instead?Wales already has its own national costume, although it varies somewhat from region to region. Unlike the Scottish tartan, it never was wiped out or discouraged by the English. There is no fanciful re-creation of what once was in the attempt to reclaim our identity. Why don't we Welsh Americans learn what it is and dress in it for those special occasions? We Welsh need to learn our own traditions. We should be proud of them. We should use them, promogulate them, and educate others about them. There is no need to borrow someone else's traditions and/or national identity. We DO NOT need to borrow the customs of others. We DO need to be proud of what we already have.Karen Hopkins Crow
I agree! Traditions always change. Life is not fixed, it is a continuum. Human beings are constantly evolving...it's a non-stop train ride to entrophy!!!Okay, I'll stop being depressing.P.S. I am not a crack pot lol!
Please don't misunderstand my post. I wouldn't advocate any type of replacement, of traditonal Welsh heritage by injecting what is considered to be exclusively Scottish. I was simply pointing out that Celtic identity is a very gray area. Again, the kilt and tartan are up for grabs as far as I'm concerned. If you like it, wear it! I also find it important to be a scholar of your own history. This is part of the reason for me joining Americymru. We can try to be as culturally accurate as possible, but I'd be willing to bet we'll fall short.I think the trouble is, much of history is tales and lore, very difficult to decifer fact from fiction. Hollywood is no help.Bottom line...before our history, was more history, and so forth. Cultural melding shall continue long after we're gone! Identity is how each individual sees it and finds it. Don't see too much on our Cornish, Manx, and Breton cousins either. I guess we'll have to wait for the movie!The make up of Britain, is nearly as mixed as that of the United States. How much cultural sharing do you suppose went on from the Normans, Danish Vikings, Norwegian Vikings, Gaels, Britons, Romans, Picts, Frisians etc..?To think that one culture or another has any thing exclusive is absurd. Everything came from somewhere else, variations on the same theme is the way I see it.
no boyo liberating is starting llanwern back up and the colliers with steam coal to supply it i and i asure you a cit will be the least of you problems or maybe the start of them
I like to wear kilts, yes I do, I like to wear tartan, how about you! Sorry got a bit Dr. Seuss there for a second......still it is liberating!!
credit ? my grandad used to dream about that , talking of kilt i hear the wru is adopting the mori kilt
I always preferred the elves, personally. There's just something about tall, lean guys with high cheekbones...Waitasecond... I'm sensing a pattern here.*rofl*Plus I'm sure the Welsh can identify with a people doing almost all the work to accomplish great things and getting none of the credit!
i dont have nothing against opium lord knows i bought enought of that stuff with the indian goverment seal of purity back in the sixties , but its a real boring drug to do just like reading about hobbits , if you want fantasy read the stone monkey
Actually, I heard that clan tartans wasn't even a Scottish thing either- it was started and enforced by the English so that they could identify any troublemaker's clans for punishment! Seems to me if that's true, why the heck are the Scots still doing it?I agree on the plain kilt or standard Welsh kilt, but the family ones? Nah.The Welsh Dragon, otoh, is one of the absolute coolest national symbols ever and should be prominently and frequently displayed to raise awareness of the awesomeness of Wales. (In my humble opinion, lol.)
im starting to get confused about these remarks about welsh ness and making it known in the usa , we the welsh know what we done here we dragged the country into the industrial age , we started the most important school s here , 17 leaders of this great country have a welsh connection , of course we dont have a saint davids day parade like the micks or other ethnics , we dont wear our hearts on our sleves , and as for people quoting such greats at that hobbit bloke , well they never read jack jones rhonnda roundabout black parade bidden to the feast off to philladelphia in the morning some trust in chariots , or richard llewelleyn valleys books all six of them ,
awwwwwwww, hobbits are cute! and you don't have something against opium, do you, Dave? 
I'm not sure but I think the hobbit thing comes from some guy's rant about people expecting to come to Wales and see "men's choirs of coal-munching hobbits, singing hymns in four-part harmony." I can't remember where that comes from but I know I laughed like a dog when I read it.
I'm not sure but I think the hobbit thing comes from some guy's rant about people expecting to come to Wales and see "men's choirs of coal-munching hobbits, singing hymns in four-part harmony." I can't remember where that comes from but I know I laughed like a dog when I read it.
My servers in the garage mate...I just spilt coffee on it...in afew hours there'll be a six pack parked on top of it...but youre talking about the ning server...I dont know what they get up to there
hey ceri the thing is out of context using a indian server are you boyo
well i dont know about tribal valleys but i do know tribal lands change from village to village i think *******s world view of welshness is a little myopic , try being a kerdiff clan member and going to a dance in caerphilly five miles as the crow flys they dont keep a welcome on the hill side when you come home again to wales if your from five miles away and as for that hobbit remark? wales has nothing in common with a oxford don rewriting history to support his opium habit , never mind that the said oxford don stole the idea from welsh tales and fleshed them out a bit
Good point well made..perhaps a new topic of discussion....How shall we enter the new millenium proclaiming our Welshness?
This is a VERY important subject to me - I want to make being Welsh in the US as recognizable and proud, etc, as being Irish or Scottish and to make that happen, you have to identify things for people to recognize and it AIN'T kilts because that's Scottish in people's minds and Wales is NOT Scotland. So what ARE Welsh things that people will recognize? I think the red dragon - did you know it's Wales' National Bird? I think that's f'ing cool, personally. The Eistedfodd and storytelling, the gift of the spoken word. What else?
Clans? No! but tribes yes! We were Ordovician, Venodocian...and I'm sure there were tribal markers. The Irish really can't claim kilts etc as their own but in the US they do! What should we claim as an identifying characteristic if not tartan and other stereotypical Celtism's?Just a thought
I don't think I can muster a single word within those thousand words in my vocab that could quite sum up how I feel about those pictures Gaabi
I love the story of your wearing the Henderson tartan and I think that would be a honor to wear and for your children to wear. 
I'm also some Scottish, MacTamhais, and looking for that tartan to make kilts for my boys (it's frikking expensive!).Are leather kilts uncomfortable? I remember the guy who did the blacksmith demonstration at the Anne Arundel games wore a black leather kilt with a belt for his tools and a little nail and tool bag instead of a sporran and he looked fantastic! (he just looked fantastic anyway, but that only helped)And you're right, there are definitely grey areas in anything, and in the US we figure it out for ourselves -
I'm also some Scottish, MacTamhais, and looking for that tartan to make kilts for my boys (it's frikking expensive!).Are leather kilts uncomfortable? I remember the guy who did the blacksmith demonstration at the Anne Arundel games wore a black leather kilt with a belt for his tools and a little nail and tool bag instead of a sporran and he looked fantastic! (he just looked fantastic anyway, but that only helped)And you're right, there are definitely grey areas in anything, and in the US we figure it out for ourselves -
Amen
HEAVENS!!!! Well now I'm sold!! RT honorable member for Ynys Mon and Charleston SC. PS AAAA.....MMMEN!!
as a post script i hope that the chairman( the rt hon member for newport rd and the left coast (north) will hire extra serving staff for the forthcoming meeting at the albert (upstairs) as members of the public (not the bar) had trouble seeing who were the sub committe , as per the guild lines layed down by the members and officers of the guild of sub committes , at times the sa flowed so slowley members of the general public thought , committe members were paying for gods gift to southwales east , do i have a amen ?
i hope the rt hon member ( no pun) will use welsh wax on his bikini line
So it's agreed, I shall submit the first 'upkilt' with my magnificant spore(a)n included within the boundaries of the aforementioned photograph..allow me time to shave, wax, trim and generally spruce my kilt-ophian area..............okay I'm done!
The floor recognises the invaluable contribution made by the Right Honorable member for the combined constituency of Talgarth, Ely and New Orleans ....the Tech Specs ( sporran ) sub-committee is directed to report at the next meeting in The Albert in 2010
i second that motion but give the floor too the sub committe for tech specs on sporans , as the chair man will see from their report the scots built sporans violate the very rules laid down by the sub committe for sporan dai mentions , insofar as the requirement that the said article will not hold two halfpint bottles of brains and a clarkes pie i yield the floor
thats settled then...I feel we have made real progress today gentlemen and we should all pat ourselves on the back in recognition of the hard work we have done...unless there are any points of order I propose we adjourn till sometime in mid 2010...all those still awake and in agreement please say aye or make incmprehensible braying noises to indicate your approval
agreed......in principal, though not withstanding further negotiation, dilly-dally'ing and a general feeling of confusion upon further review.
It would appears so..because a dispute has arisen regarding the time and location of the next sub-sub-committee meeting....there are also problems with the live entertainment and refreshments on that occasion........the "upstairs in the Albert" faction appear to be insisting on S.A. and a Shirley Bassey lookalike. It appears that a further committe will be necessary . I propose the following working title:-Americymru Editorial Board Tasteful and Artistically Significant Upkilt Emergency Committee - Dougal McTavish Sub-Committee - 2012 Meeting, Entertainments and Refreshments Working GroupOf course this title is open for further discussion.
i take it that the subcommitte for the hemline of demarkation have agreed to disagree on the basic line of demarkation as reguarding the ayrshire ruling of 1633
Aye, aye! Wait..what am I voting for? Photographic repro's, and their legitimacy will be brought up in the next Americymru meeting, slated for Mar 3rd 2012, between 3:00pm and 3:03 pm at the Las Vegas Bellagio, to be followed by a stirring rendition of 'What's new pussycat?' by a sound Tom Jones loookalike who unfortunately cannot hit the higher notes.
Thankyou for your clarification statement...I think it may stand in need of further clarification....perhaps you can explain what it meant later...meanwhile with reference to the Dougal McTavish Judgement of 1663 ( a vital and pioneering legal and aministrative precedent )...does this extend to the photographic reproduction of of oil paintings of "said articles"...a point which the County of Ayrshire was not able to pronounce upon in 1663 for obvious historical reasons. Are we all in favor of forming a sub-sub-committee in order to consider this point?
As a part of the 'Upkilt' commitee, may I impart the '1663 County of Ayrshire vs. Dougal McTavish' legislative action that denotes 'only oil paintings, or reproductions of said oil paintings, of said nether regions, of said whatever we were talking about may be put in full view of the public, lest our innocents be defamed by sightings of said articles', in other words...Upkilts have the yes vote!!...I think!
OK...In order to break the deadlock in the Americymru Editorial Board Upkilt Sub-Committee..we have decided to launch a plebiscite..The question is this..Will this site display tasteful and artistically significant upkilt shots on its forum and discussion boards?...the floor is open for debate and all votes will be counted after due processCeri ShawCo-ordinating ChairpersonAmericymru Editorial Board Tasteful and Artistically Significant Upkilt Emergency Sub-Committee
the process inwales reminds me of the meetings in the movie the life of brian ,
It seems that you have a firm grasp of the Welsh political process...hundreds of years of democratic tradition distilled into a highly sophisticated beaurocratic shambles...as for our own process here...we are stuck because there are not enough of us to form 15 sub-committees.r
Just as every governmental decision made in Wales, this should be discussed, re-discussed, mulled over, a meeting be set about the rediscussion, written in copy, duplicated, re-duplicated for the honorable Syr from Arfon who was not present due to Eisteddfod commitments (wife judges the oratorio), submitted to council, then forgotten about by the very people who first put it forth!!
The editorial board of Americymru is in emergency session right now formulating policy on upkilt shots on this site. I'm in favour of instant deletion...Gaabriel thinks they might be fun though:)
oh dear, hornets nest may have been disturbed. Agreed, no 'upkilts', especially as I may feel obliged to shave....ych a fi!
What we need now is some Upkilt shots...lol...only joking...dont post....please, please!!!
I have a Draig Goch Cilt and once someone came up to say he didn't approve (His wife liked it though) but I've lost count of the number of people who make favourable comments. In fact I could have sold at least half a dozen if the person who made mine wanted to make more.Obviously it's not the sort of thing to wear at a formal occasion but it's fun, and being proud of being Welsh doesn't mean you have to take yourself too seriously.I wear my cilt way more than I wear a tie.
...only time it's not is if you wear a Jock strap...arf, arf!
so wearing of welsh tartan in kilts is ok now this brings me to the second part of my question is it ok for taffs to go breezing while wearing the kilt or is it a scots thing only ?
Personally I quite like the Welsh tartan; it's a good way for Americans to start relating Welsh people to Celtic culture rather than Anglo-Saxon. To be fair historically speaking the Scots only started wearing kilts a relatively short time ago, before that they wore plaid trousers (circa William Wallace) like the other celts. Personally I like telling people that my scarf is Hughes' tartan and is relevant to my ethnicity and culture, let's face it the Irish and Scots have had plenty of identifying features in the US over the years, why not us? It's not like I can wear a Welsh rugby shirt to work every day, and dress my little girl in a stove pipe hat and apron..
Leather kilts? Definitely not! As I said, I think if the Welsh kilt were recognized by the tartan society in Scotland, and properly recorded, then I don't see any issue with this. I wear either a band tartan or one of the tartans from my Scottish ancestry or close affiliation. For example, I wear the Henderson tartan. Jim Henderson was my first bagpipe teacher from Aberdeen Scotland, he was also like a father to me during my teen years. When he passed away he left me his pipes and his kilt. If I ever have children I will probably insist they wear a Henderson tartan, as it is a tradition that if a host asks you wear their tartan, you honor them in doing so. I have recently found more Scots ancestry along a maternal line in my family...Glenn, Gordon, and Wilkinson, However, it is not traditional to wear tartan along maternal lines.My original surname is Jones, which in my opinion is a very handsome Welsh tartan...alas it is commercially contrived. However, all hope is not lost, it could someday have its own provenance. Us celtic peoples have been sharing culture for centuries upon centuries.I think if we as Welsh folk decide to partake in this cultural aspect from our Scottish cousins, then we should. But we should also go about it in a correct manner. I believe we shouldn't seperate ourselves from our other cousins too much.And as I've said, I haven't really seen too much solid evidence of what culture really started tartan, and kilt. Of course the Scots (which I am too) want it to be exclusive to them, but I wouldn't say that is absolute. I will give two more examples: Don't forget that at one time Welsh peoples were found as far north as modern day Edinburgh, the Scottish clan Wallace, has Welsh roots. And lastly, tartan was supposedly only found in the Highlands and Highland clans MacDonald, MacLeod, MacDougall etc... Why is it then, that now, 'lowland' Scots wear totaly accepted tartans?As you can see, lot's of gray areas in regards to tartan.Cheers,Joel
I like kilts on men but I DON'T like the idea of Welsh tartan - it seems too fake and Disneyland-ish to me and too much like desperately copying Scotland to get some attention or something. Let's find out what our own things are and do those. I think if you have to wear a kilt to be a piper and you want it to be Welsh, how about Draig Goch or plain leather kilts?Vin Diesel in awesome black kilt from 21st Century Kilts http://www.21stcenturykilts.com/celebrityclients.htm# www.kiltednation.com
I think Welsh kilts are still gaining some provenance. Kilts are for sure not traditionally Welsh. For some reason the Scots seem to poke at other celtic countries who would like to adopt wearing them. I have seen some pretty heated arguments bewteen Irish and Scottish, in regards to who actually had tartan and kilts first.Personally, I don't think anyone will truly know where and when they originated. Many Scottish tartans were romantic creations by the Sobieskis, of the Tudors. Queen Victoria had designs on what she percieved, or at least wanted to believe Celtic culture was. Those that wanted a Celtic cultural revival, bit hook line and sinker this romantic version of what it was to be a Celt.Anyway, today I do wear a kilt. Infact, it is required that pipers compete in "proper highland attire". I enjoy wearing the kilt, and I don't think it matters if it is a Scottish tartan, or a newly created Welsh tartan. I do believe however, that if you choose to wear a kilt, that it be worn in the prescribed traditional fashion that is in place nowadays. Believe it or not...'highland attire' is a bit of a science.On a last note I would like to see the Welsh tartans registered so as to add some ligitimancy. Please excuse my spelling!Joel
excuse me i went to asdas web site via wiki what? polish center of ethnic kulture , its notes are some what missleading it states that a welsh group of middleclass twits reinvented welsh kulture during the mid sixties to suport a bunch of peole with suspect welsh names with a living after their arts grants were lost
So when are we going to see the Martin Tartan Dave? The girlfriend is knitting ours as we speak.....lol.
For once the Wikipedia gets it more or less right:-"A Welsh Kilt (Welsh: Cilt) is a type of kilt worn in Wales and by Welshmen. Although not considered a traditional component of Welsh national dress, the kilt has become recently popular in the Celtic nations as a sign of Celtic identity.[6] Kilts and tartans can therefore also be seen in Cornwall, the Isle of Man, the Tras-os-Montes region in the North of Portugal, and Galicia in Spain, as well as England, particularly the North East. Nowadays with Welsh nationalism on the rise and a resurgence of Welsh national pride, kilts (or cilts in Welsh) are being worn more and more by Welshmen.[7]The St David's Tartan or brithwe Dewi Sant is one of the most popular tartans in Wales, but individual family tartans are being produced, despite there being no evidence that the Welsh (or any other Celtic nation for that matter) traditionally used tartan to identify families . Williams, Jones, Thomas, Evans, and Davies are among the most popular tartans and common names in Wales. The Welsh National tartan was designed by D.M. Richards in 1967 to demonstrate Wales' connection with the greater Celtic world. Its colours (green, red, and white) are the colours of the Welsh national flag.Although they are generally seen these days in formal settings like weddings, there has been an increase in the number of people wearing their kilt to a rugby or football match, paired with a jersey rather than a formal jacket."
is this a tommy cooper put on that was taken for a ride by authentic welsh shops in kerdiff , ?
updated by @dave-martin: 12/04/15 03:57:45PM
updated by @dave-martin: 12/04/15 03:57:45PM
