Posted by anonymous| July 31, 2009Place NamesSince the Trip Diary moves to Wales next week, Id better say a word about the spelling Ive used of various place names. In modern Wales, its a no-brainer; the Welsh spelling is preferred. Its Caernarfon, not Carnarvon. However, theyre both pronounced the same; there is no letter V in the Welsh language.The English spellings, favoured in earlier years, came about because the first visitors wrote down what they heard. For instance, theres a three-peaked mountain called Yr Eifl. In Welsh, it means The Fork, but English Victorian ears heard The Rivals, and so it appeared on maps until comparatively recently.The problem arises when youre writing about the history. Do you use the modern spelling, or that prevalent in the period youre writing about? Youd write The Ffestiniog Railway takes passengers from Porthmadog if youre writing about the here and now, But, should it be The Festiniog Railway brought slates down to Portmadoc However, I shall use modern spelling throughout, in the interests of consistency.But,what if the Welsh name for somewhere is totally different to the English name? I had the answer several years ago, from someone who teaches Welsh and is a member of the Welsh Language Society.Its only Caergybi if youre speaking Welsh. Otherwise, its Holyhead.mThat makes sense; Id probably be thought affected if I talked about Moskwa, Koeln or Firenze. And, I have no quarrel with anyone who calls our capital Londres or Londino.So, I shall discuss Snowdon rather that Yr Wyddfa. But, one thing I was asked to do was to emphasise that it is never MOUNT Snowdon just SnowdonPosted in Europe, Snowdonia, Travel writing, Wales, language, writing Painted LadySnowdon Mountain Railway Responses1.I dont agree with you; generally a name is a name except for the French, they translate everything. Whether one is English or Spanish Tierra Del Fuego is exactly that, Nova Scotia is Nova Scotia and not New Scotland. As a Welshman I would say the Severn Sea whereas you would say the Bristol Channel; Biwmaris is stupid and if Cardiff evolved through dialect then it should be left as such. Corruptions such as the Rivals should be corrected but understood to be spoken in its quaint form out of ignorance. Llangorse lake is Llyn Syfaddan as Bala Lake is Llyn Tegid, there is no choice involved. A first language Welsh speaker would say Caerwrangon for Worcester because English places had Welsh names before England existed, so there are historical reasons, but on the whole an English name in Wales is an incorrect form, if one is Welsh the Welsh name should be used e.g. Abertawe, but there are similar historical reasons why an English person could choose to say Swansea.*By: bynbrynman on July 31, 2009at 9:00 pmReply*In most bilingual societies (eg Switzerland (Suisse/Schweiz/Svizzera) the name to be used should depend on whichever language you are speaking. Interestingly, Google Maps do give the names of places in the majority language of that country; the city I just looked up was given as Antwerpen not the French Anvers or the English Antwerp.Curiously, though, they give the English names to Holyhead, Cardiff and Swansea maybe because the Welsh names arent so widely known???Good point about the French I often wondered why we refer to Bruges when most of the people who live there call it Brugge?(Reason for the post is that I recently got taken to task for calling writing Den Haag instead of The Hague!)Thanks for the comment!Take care,KeithoBy: travelrat on August 1, 2009at 8:20 amReply2.P.S. To qualify my point; when one speaks in English person one may use the English form for respect of his or her understanding and not to be a bore, but to a Welsh person one must use the correct form which is invariably in Welsh, although there could be an historical anomaly. An example of my argument is in the case of the name of the Country, as with the Inuits more and more Welsh people are using the Welsh name Cymru instead of the iniquitous German name of Wales. precisely because it is of the Welsh for the Welsh. The Welsh language was put out bounds by law for the sake of English uniformity, but a name is a name, a motherly gift, a foster parent may re-baptise and brainwash you but deep down you know your own name and one day when you are adult and mature you will get your chance to use it again.*By: bynbrynman on August 1, 2009at 9:37 amReply*Hi, Byn!Im with you on the name of the country much better a name that means Homeland. than it being (allegedly) derived from a word meaning stranger or foreigner.But, was it Germanic, though? Memory on this is somewhat dusty, but wasnt it the Romans who bestowed the name Gwalia?Compare this with the French for Wales Pays Galles which doesnt seem a thousand miles from Gaelic. Gaul, Gallic and Gallego (the language spoken by people of Celtic origin in Spain) maybe the word doesnt mean what its alleged after all?BTW, I had a look at your blog & it looks great! Ill be in for a drink if Im ever in the area!oBy: travelrat on August 1, 2009at 3:18 pmReply3.I meant in English to an English person*By: bynbrynman on August 1, 2009at 9:42 amReply4.Reminds me of some of the places in New Zealand where the names are written in Maori and it is frowned upon if you say them in English. Youll do well in Wales, Keith. You know so much about the etiquette of traveling.*By: Selma on August 1, 2009at 11:12 amReply*Oh, dear; I am in trouble! The only words of Maori I know are Kia-ora and thats only because we used to have a fruit drink of that name!oBy: travelrat on August 1, 2009at 3:21 pmReply5.The English name of the country of the Welsh derives from the Anglo-Saxon word wealas or walas, used for the natives they found as they conquered parts of Britain. Generally believed to mean strangers or foreigners, it was in fact a Germanic word referring to people who had been Romanized compare Walloon and Vlach). It was perhaps derived from a Celtic tribe, the Volcae, familiar to Germanic peoples. The Welsh Academy Encyclopaedia of WalesO.E. Welisc, Waelisc, etc., = O.H.G. wal(a)hisc, walesc Roman, Italian, French, O.N. valskr Gaulish f. Gmc *walhaz foreign f. L Volcae, name of a Celtic people.It was the word in the mouths of the Germanic invaders at the time that concerns me. Apparently Wealh from the same root also meant slave in Saxon law.*By: bynbrynman on August 1, 2009at 4:35 pmReply*Thanks, Byn!Interesting that Wales and Wallonia (the French-speaking part of Belgium) are believed to come from the same root.oBy: travelrat on August 2, 2009at 5:45 amReply6.I forgot to acknowledge the Oxford Dictionary*By: bynbrynman on August 1, 2009at 4:39 pmReply7.As far as I know all Gals and Wals, with the odd exception such as Galilee, are names that are given by others and applied by us from the other persons viewpoint to ironically mean foreigner, e,g: Gaul; Galatia; Galicia; Wallachia; Wales; Walloon; it refers to neighbouring peoples whom they encountered and were different to themselves. It is a sad thing for these people themselves to take pride in the word as it is applied externally and not meant to be used internally. Inuit for an eskimo; Cymro for a Welshman.*By: bynbrynman on August 2, 2009at 10:35 amReply8.I like Canada supposed to be derived from the Inuit word for our village !*By: travelrat on August 2, 2009at 10:42 amReply9.Huron-Iroquois*By: bynbrynman on August 2, 2009at 11:04 am