08/13/10 08:10:37PM @ceri-shaw:
I suppose I should add an extreme parental advisory notice on the lyrics of the YouTube video posted below. I suppose I should also add that there was a queue to bail Steven out of Riker's Island. People including retired Marines who had never met Steven were lining up to post the 2500 dollar bond. He certainly touched a raw nerve and I think its very relevant to the discussion about people taking pride in their work and about others allowing them to. Enough!!!! Just my two cents and I'm returning the hired soapbox right now
08/13/10 07:25:33PM @ceri-shaw:
Once again ...agreed. We had the recent Jet Blue incident over here. The guy ( Steven Slater ) is now a national hero and rightly so in my opinion. He has over 200,000 fans on his Facebook page. The time has come for people who do demanding public service and customer service jobs to be treated with respect. Its much easier to take pride in your work if people treat you with the respect you deserve if you are making a genuine attempt to do the job well. People need to understand that venting one's frustrations at the nearest convenient target ( frequently someone in the service industries ) is not acceptable. So much easier to encourage people to take jobs that are currently considered 'demeaning' if that label is removed and one is allowed to take pride in ones work .
08/13/10 07:02:46PM @gaynor-madoc-leonard:
Along with apprenticeships, we need to instil in people a sense of pride in whatever job they do. We need people with practical skills and people to continue traditional crafts. A good example of pride in one's work is our local street-cleaner (I don't know what technical name for this job our council uses!); he takes great pride in doing his job well and local people notice and appreciate it. This is an important job and we should be grateful he takes it seriously.
08/13/10 06:53:59PM @ceri-shaw:
Agreed....something must happen soon. Of course the devil is always in the detail I like your apprenticeship idea. A revival of the old apprenticeship system would be an excellent step in the right direction in my opinion. I'm always on my guard however against suggestions that we should all learn to subsist at third world wage levels. I think its in everyone's interest to resist a 'globalization' of income expectations that brings us into line with current wage levels in Taiwan or wherever else jobs are currently being outsourced to.
08/13/10 06:34:26PM @gaynor-madoc-leonard:
Thanks for that Guardian article, Ceri. I hope Ian Duncan Smith can come up with a viable reform. What you say is correct about having a welfare safety net but the conundrum is there in that article. Apprenticeships have more or less gone by the board; these must be brought back in some way, with assistance given to employers willing to give apprenticeships. I too have experienced being on the dole in the far distant past (but for a relatively short time) and I know how soul-destroying it feels when one's been used to working and earning. During my student days, I worked at Cardiff Labour Exchange (before the days of Job Centres) and found it quite upsetting at times; that was a long time ago and attitudes were somewhat different I think then - people wanted jobs. Something must happen soon though.
08/13/10 05:56:09PM @ceri-shaw:
Another good article on roughly the same subject here:- http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/jul/30/welfare-tax-benefits-duncan-smith I think this is the most telling section:-'Current arrangements, which penalised people who were trying to get off benefits, amounted to a "supertax" on some of the worst off in society.He said: "Working for a few hours a week is completely unattractive if you lose 8 or 9 for every 10 you earn. Would we want to work if we had a 90% rate of deduction in our earnings.'I have had the misfortune of spending time on unemployement benefit many years ago when I lived in Wales and found it thoroughly depressing. For sure your basic needs are met but when all is said and done you simply 'exist'. It's no kind of life at all. I firmly believe that the welfare net is an essential safeguard and helps to prevent Wales social fabric from breaking down altogether. Without it tens of thousands of people would become homeless , crime rates would soar and Wales would be a far uglier place. The problem is how do we make it easier for people to leave welfare behind and move on to better things. Maybe it would be a good idea to give money to employers provided they were willing to hire at a significantly higher rate than minimum wage. At least that way we would be subsidising employment rather than unemployment. Also some tinkering with tax codes for the lower paid might help. Either way it has to be made significantly more of an attractive proposition to be working rather than not. Lowering the rate of benefits is not an option in my opinion since hey are already calculated to be the lowest possible level of income on which you can survive.
08/13/10 04:35:06PM @dai-williams:
Well the welfare state does work in Germany, as they are a people who have a social pride and the safety net is there to help in times of need. But in the UK like we said it is a way of life for life. If you don't pull your wait in any private organisation your out on your ear. It should be the same across the board. I know deaf, blind and people with other disabilities who all put in a hard days work, so there's no excuses.
08/13/10 02:36:15PM @dai-williams:
Ye the problem is they get their rent paid, their rates paid, then they get dole then income support, it all adds up to more then some people earn. The pension system is the same, my farther had a small works pension, that ment he had about 5 more than the average guy, so he had to pay for everything, MR Average had rent rebate rate rebate free dental free eyes income support and more, which ment MR Average was abot 30 better off a week than my farther. So much for saving for the future.
08/13/10 02:31:15PM @gaynor-madoc-leonard:
You speak sooth, Dai. I've done a great deal of research into my family history and what is clear from that is that when people didn't have work available in their place of birth or home, they moved to find work (I'm talking about the industrial revolution and onward). I have Irish antecedents who moved from Co. Cork to Yorkshire to find work; my Scottish/Irish grandfather was born in Leeds and somehow (I don't know how because he died following a mine accident in Carmarthenshire in 1932) ended up as a farmworker in Abergwili, married my grandmother and worked first in a gasworks and then at the mine where he had his fatal accident. I don't want to sound like Norman Tebbit but they got on their bikes (figuratively speaking). It appears that some of the people Jeff Randall interviewed weren't even game to take a bus to Cardiff, never mind cross the country, to find work.
I suppose I should add an extreme parental advisory notice on the lyrics of the YouTube video posted below. I suppose I should also add that there was a queue to bail Steven out of Riker's Island. People including retired Marines who had never met Steven were lining up to post the 2500 dollar bond. He certainly touched a raw nerve and I think its very relevant to the discussion about people taking pride in their work and about others allowing them to. Enough!!!! Just my two cents and I'm returning the hired soapbox right now
More on Steven Sleter here :- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18GV1DDnrHU&NR=1 For anyone who's been living in a cave for the last week
Once again ...agreed. We had the recent Jet Blue incident over here. The guy ( Steven Slater ) is now a national hero and rightly so in my opinion. He has over 200,000 fans on his Facebook page. The time has come for people who do demanding public service and customer service jobs to be treated with respect. Its much easier to take pride in your work if people treat you with the respect you deserve if you are making a genuine attempt to do the job well. People need to understand that venting one's frustrations at the nearest convenient target ( frequently someone in the service industries ) is not acceptable. So much easier to encourage people to take jobs that are currently considered 'demeaning' if that label is removed and one is allowed to take pride in ones work .
Along with apprenticeships, we need to instil in people a sense of pride in whatever job they do. We need people with practical skills and people to continue traditional crafts. A good example of pride in one's work is our local street-cleaner (I don't know what technical name for this job our council uses!); he takes great pride in doing his job well and local people notice and appreciate it. This is an important job and we should be grateful he takes it seriously.
Agreed....something must happen soon. Of course the devil is always in the detail
Thanks for that Guardian article, Ceri. I hope Ian Duncan Smith can come up with a viable reform. What you say is correct about having a welfare safety net but the conundrum is there in that article. Apprenticeships have more or less gone by the board; these must be brought back in some way, with assistance given to employers willing to give apprenticeships. I too have experienced being on the dole in the far distant past (but for a relatively short time) and I know how soul-destroying it feels when one's been used to working and earning. During my student days, I worked at Cardiff Labour Exchange (before the days of Job Centres) and found it quite upsetting at times; that was a long time ago and attitudes were somewhat different I think then - people wanted jobs. Something must happen soon though.
Another good article on roughly the same subject here:- http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/jul/30/welfare-tax-benefits-duncan-smith I think this is the most telling section:-'Current arrangements, which penalised people who were trying to get off benefits, amounted to a "supertax" on some of the worst off in society.He said: "Working for a few hours a week is completely unattractive if you lose 8 or 9 for every 10 you earn. Would we want to work if we had a 90% rate of deduction in our earnings.'I have had the misfortune of spending time on unemployement benefit many years ago when I lived in Wales and found it thoroughly depressing. For sure your basic needs are met but when all is said and done you simply 'exist'. It's no kind of life at all. I firmly believe that the welfare net is an essential safeguard and helps to prevent Wales social fabric from breaking down altogether. Without it tens of thousands of people would become homeless , crime rates would soar and Wales would be a far uglier place. The problem is how do we make it easier for people to leave welfare behind and move on to better things. Maybe it would be a good idea to give money to employers provided they were willing to hire at a significantly higher rate than minimum wage. At least that way we would be subsidising employment rather than unemployment. Also some tinkering with tax codes for the lower paid might help. Either way it has to be made significantly more of an attractive proposition to be working rather than not. Lowering the rate of benefits is not an option in my opinion since hey are already calculated to be the lowest possible level of income on which you can survive.
Well the welfare state does work in Germany, as they are a people who have a social pride and the safety net is there to help in times of need. But in the UK like we said it is a way of life for life. If you don't pull your wait in any private organisation your out on your ear. It should be the same across the board. I know deaf, blind and people with other disabilities who all put in a hard days work, so there's no excuses.
Ye the problem is they get their rent paid, their rates paid, then they get dole then income support, it all adds up to more then some people earn. The pension system is the same, my farther had a small works pension, that ment he had about 5 more than the average guy, so he had to pay for everything, MR Average had rent rebate rate rebate free dental free eyes income support and more, which ment MR Average was abot 30 better off a week than my farther. So much for saving for the future.
You speak sooth, Dai. I've done a great deal of research into my family history and what is clear from that is that when people didn't have work available in their place of birth or home, they moved to find work (I'm talking about the industrial revolution and onward). I have Irish antecedents who moved from Co. Cork to Yorkshire to find work; my Scottish/Irish grandfather was born in Leeds and somehow (I don't know how because he died following a mine accident in Carmarthenshire in 1932) ended up as a farmworker in Abergwili, married my grandmother and worked first in a gasworks and then at the mine where he had his fatal accident. I don't want to sound like Norman Tebbit but they got on their bikes (figuratively speaking). It appears that some of the people Jeff Randall interviewed weren't even game to take a bus to Cardiff, never mind cross the country, to find work.