THE MADOC ENIGMA

Posted by BEE RICHARDS on January 21, 2009 at 11:35am in Madoc

Hi Everybody, I am so glad that the presentation of only a little of the Madoc information has started off what could be an extremely lively and informative group. I have read most of the literature (contemporary) on Madoc but became intrigued with the legend introduced to me by Bill Isaac a few years ago - a great proponent of Madoc here in Wales (sadly now deceased). For methe seminal work by Zella Armstrong got me really going. I have tried to read Paul Muldoon's poetic account but frankly it leaves me as wise as I started and finished.

The stone forts are another riddle but follow the lines of medeavil European military architecture, so do paintings of the inhabitants of that country by Caitlin illustrate the use of an extremely similar copy of a coracle and also some of the dwelling houses are similar to those found in Europe. This is why I have entitled my article, which was not very comprehensive just a taster of the large amount of eveidence allbeit circumstantial and unproveable.

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Reply by Morgan Hen on January 21, 2009 at 12:08pm

The Trouble with the whole Madoc story is its lack of pre16th Century evidence. It was said that it was created by the Tudors to boost their claim to the "New World"!

Is there any solid evidence from middle ages about Madoc?

Reply by Neil Hughes on January 21, 2009 at 12:39pm

Owain Gwynedd like most of the Welsh princes of the time was prolific at producing children 'out of wedlock'.Whilst these illegitimate sons had full right of inheritance under Welsh law it is likely that the lesser sons(for want of a better phrase) would keep out of the usual squabbling for power.This may explain why Madoc and his brother Rhirid were not as well documented as their more famous siblings.I mention Rhirid because I have read accounts that he accompanied Madoc on his voyage to the New World.

Reply by Neil Hughes on January 21, 2009 at 12:59pm

Whilst on the subject is there anyone on this site who knows what happened to the MADOC 1170 forum that has disappeared without trace.I used the name Glyndwr(very original) on aforementioned site if anyone can help I would be grateful.

Reply by Ceri Shaw on January 21, 2009 at 1:38pm

Hi Neil...it's still there. See discussion posted in this group below:-

A Note on Previous Forum Discussions of this Topic

We wanted to host a more focused discussion on the Madoc issue. So we closed the four forum discussions linked from the post above and started this group to concentrate the debate in one area of the site. I can reopen those discussions for comments if you wish or if there is anything in those forums you want reposted here it can be cut and pasted. (Note: As of 2015 these threads have been incorporated into the current Madoc Group )

Reply by Neil Hughes on January 21, 2009 at 1:54pm

Diolch Ceri but it wasn't on Americymru it was madoc1170.com started by a guy from S.Wales(Ithink) who had the idea of making a film about Madoc.It ran for quite a while then disappeared into cyberspace.I recall that there where quite a number of Welsh-Americans on the site and was hoping one or two may be on here.

Reply by Ceri Shaw on January 21, 2009 at 1:57pm

Ahhhh right....I wasn't aware of that site. How long ago was it around?

Reply by Neil Hughes on January 21, 2009 at 2:34pm

It ran for a year or two,Ceri,then vanished last year.

Reply by BEE RICHARDS on January 21, 2009 at 1:24pm

Hi there, this seems to be the case. Although his half brother David was married to the half sister of the English King. Southey's poem although only fiction states he came back to Wales and regaled them with tales of the new world he had found. Was the ill fated so called expedition financed by family money with pretensions to Welsh Imperialism?????????????????????????????????? Makes one think

Reply by BEE RICHARDS on January 21, 2009 at 1:27pm

There does not seem to have been any systematic archealogical investigation of the 'StoneForts' that I have read of. if anyone can correct me on this or offer to throw any light on it. That would be wonderful. Best...... Bee

Reply by Fionnchú on January 23, 2009 at 12:57pm

For Morgan Hen's question two days ago: Simple summary from s4c: Madoc: Medieval Evidence? The site also has a brief intro and a look at post-1500 evidence (or its lack).

The Bad Archeology site I've linked to in an earlier post scrutinizes the Welsh-language texts and runes themselves marshalled in favor of Madoc.

Reply by Ned Phillips-Jones on January 21, 2009 at 2:02pm

I've recently been doing some research on this topic. I've looked into reports by Alan Wilson and Baram Blackett (web site: http://www.kingarthurslegacy.com. I also found a scholarly article by Dr. J. Huston McCulloch in which the author details a thorough examination the Bat Creek Stone (on which Wilson and Blacket's Madoc theory relies). The site with the article is www.midwesternepigraphic.org/bat-creek.html. McCulloch concludes that the stone is genuine after comparing marks made since the stone's discovery with the inscriptions on the stone. According to Wilson and Blackett, the inscriptions are in ancient Coelbren and read "Madoc the ruler he is". I attempted to contact Wilson and Blackett through their site to inquire about any recent progress, details of a Coelbren-inscripted sword supposedly found in America that is pictured on their site and DNA research supposedly being performed. I've got no response as of yet (I contacted them a week ago). I'll give updates if new information comes to light.

Reply by Neil Hughes on January 21, 2009 at 2:32pm

Just been on the Wilson and Blackett site,Ned. Absolutely fascinating.Like all celts I am a dreamer and despite conflicting evidence would love the story of Madoc to be true.What a kick in the teeth for the Saes if it was fact.